Discussion in 'Chat About Anything In Here' started by Ken Jagger, Jun 22, 2018.


Do you want to race online at and what Sim/s are you interested in?

  1. Yes

  2. No

    0 vote(s)
  3. rFactor

  4. rFactor 2

  5. Automobilista

  6. Assetto Corsa

  7. Project Cars

  8. Project Cars 2

Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Bret Metcalf

    Bret Metcalf Pro Driver Donator

    I have been through something very similar back in the day when I was admin for another league, back then the main three sims iirc were rf1, rF2 & iRacing. After various polls & trials we decided to go with rF2 based on what the members wanted, also based on the reasoning of less choice of sim=more participation in the chosen one. One other very important point is the admin team at the time realized to try and please everybody was not only not working but placing tremendous stress, pressure and disappointment on the admin team itself when massive efforts were put in to organize championships for rF1, rF2 & iRacing only to find a handful of drivers pitching up to race. Nowadays, the market, perhaps is not exactly flooded with online racing sims however, there are plenty more than what there was say 8/9 years ago which once again makes things very difficult (imo) for league organizers. My advice is to go with two sims maximum (the most popular requested by the members), irrespective of what sims they are. Hope I am not coming across the wrong way as if I know everything, hopefully, you know me better than that.:)

    • Like Like x 1
  2. Ken Jagger

    Ken Jagger Administrator Staff Member Donator

    The idea behind having the No button, is as I said in the post, that we have a lot of members who have never raced, but still visit the site, so maybe they just like to view threads/posts etc and not actually race.

    Having said that, I didn't realistically expect many No votes, because if those "invisible" members can't bother to race or post any messages, they are unlikely to vote in a Poll.
  3. Ken Jagger

    Ken Jagger Administrator Staff Member Donator

    Thanks very much for sharing your own experiences with us Bret. This first Poll is intended to try and give us a view of what our members like, rather than it defining the exact things we will do. There could be many members, who for whatever reason, have not raced here yet, or very little, so possibly with other follow-on Polls we can establish why that is. Of course with the dedicated sim-racing community being so variable at the moment, we might never get the information we need to be able to make any meaningful decisions, but we wanted to try at least :)
  4. Rob Milliken

    Rob Milliken Administrator Staff Member Donator

    This is how sim racing is these days ..its like fast food lol .. Brett is right & i had many discussions with Tim at r2p on the subject of what to run ...
    its a fickle crowed .. We have a unique set up here at SRO & with the stats tracking software we can manage most all the popular games .. I don't exactly know what makes a player choose where to race but in the end it comes down to racing with like minded drivers & developing friendships .. For the grid sizes it all comes down to numbers .. you have to figure only 10-15 % of your member base is going to race consistently .. so the bigger the over all member base the larger the girds .its the same in car sales 10 people come in , 2 or 3 will buy something .. if we have 500 members 50 of those might be active racers ,then what sim do they like ? split that number into 3 or 4 sims & now you have an average of 12 drivers per grid , the percentage numbers are actually smaller than this example its closer to 7-9 % of drivers are active ..:eek::oops::confused::rolleyes: some series will have 20 drivers others will only have 4 ...
    Oh on that note :D I don't see Assetto Corsa Competizione in the list ! lol yet another cog in the gears .. we can just say its under the AC vote category ..lollol I know all the kunos guy's will be buying this game sooner or later ...But its only GT3 ..this to me is a good thing .. you know what to expect & i do believe the GT3 crowed (me included) will be driving the shit out of this game when it comes out :p
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Rob Milliken

    Rob Milliken Administrator Staff Member Donator

    Another thing I have noticed , Im posting here as this thread is all about what to race & how to get larger grids so I don't want to go to far off topic but with Time slots ,week day/night racin & weekend racing .. some players just cant race during the week ,others cant race on the weekends so planning events based on this knowledge is key .. with this fact I believe its ok to run some of the same mods/sims on the weekend that also might be in a week day series .. I mean lets say I i like rf2 clios and I see we have a series during the week but I can't race during the week ,so I look for clios on the weekend but there are none why ? because we have one during the week ? this means I now will go look somewhere else for a rf2 clio event on the weekend when I can race .. So I firmly believe that we can consider the week days & weekends events as separate race groups where its ok if we have the same cars running during the week ..if its popular mod/sim its going to get used ..
    Another thing is here in the US things are for the most part always dead however working swing shift when I get home if I fire up pc2 and have a look at the publick lobbys there are tons of players racing that game at that hour (midnight to 3 am PST time ) I can take the PW off the SRO server put up an event of say GT4 or GT3 ,tin tops ,it does not matter .the lobby quickly fills up to our max 16 players .. its crazy .. or I would host from my PC so Dan and I could practice & within the 15 min quall the room is full .. host a league event 5-10 players show up ,put an open lobby (with full real settings like in league play) it fills up .. I have pictures & vids of the full grids simply because it blows my mind haha ! Im thinking Why cant I orginize something in that slot ,there are tons of drivers out there .. So I started asking players if they would join up for organized racing at SRO & here's the thing ..80% of these players DONT want to be in any league where they have to show up at a certain time bla bla .. its such a strange phenomenon ! :confused::D
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Ricardo Gomes

    Ricardo Gomes Pro Driver

    I said this once, and I say it again:
    Too less choice, one feels "not free to choose", too much choice leads to anxiety and lack of will (this is not my opinion, they are solid results made by empirical psichology made with ice-cream flavours)
    Wanna talk about strange phenomenon? some people were given 31 flavours to choose from, and they lost the desire to eat the ice-cream :) how strange is that?

    On top of that trying to please everyone leads to division, small groups, where SRO should aim for consensus.

    I would go with 4 series, saturday and sunday, (regardless of the sim or sims) every 15 days (like John's endurance league in the beginning)
    We would have fewer races, yes, but more quórum, time to practice, time to know the tracks, more competitive series.

    Those series would be chosen, by poll, by what Ken called " smaller core number" players that do want to race regulary.
    If the main core was, let's say, 40 or 30 or 25... imagine 4 series with a average of 25 drivers each.. it would be great by my book

    Why? because being part of the decision making in regards of what we, as member of a COMUNITY, race is a IMPORTANT KEY part of a series.
    One needs to feel like one belongs to a place, and not simply a guest (a guest, as we know, comes only now and then)

    This should be, IMO, the main core of SRO racing (LEAGUES choosen by the very people/drivers that support and race with in SRO)

    What I see now is tottaly different..
    Admin A choose a series, the time and date (that serves him best), mod and tracks (he likes and wishes to race)... and the rest of us participate (as guests).
    This is wrong (proof of this is just what Rob said: why do one have to show up at a certain time to race someone elses idea of race?? I'll be better of racing offline trying to beat my time on the nordscheifle - they might think)

    4 SRO leagues during week-ends
    Club/relaxed races during week days (where some member could ask now and then to make certain combos, try new mods, or tracks, or even start to test sims that they aren't familiar with)
    And Admin chosen series (like the ones we have seen so far)

    Incomplete answer to a complex question, but the best i could do now.
    my two cents
  7. Roy Cop

    Roy Cop Pro Driver

    I agree with the "less is more" stance, however I feel differently, (I do not want to hurt anyones feelings by stating this) to cater only for the members and not like so called "guests". Its those "guests" that over time become the new members to the club. A group, league, club, even company that doesn't grow is doomed and will wither away.

    Lets take a look at how I got into this group. I found a post somewhere that SRO was doing a BTCC series for AC. Being a big BTCC fan I decided to have a look and take part in a race as a "guest". The first race was a succes as so far as I was able to judge that the participants to the race were of different ability and as far as I could see honest and clean drivers. The rules for taking part in the races were fairly standard too. I then decided to try another race/mod in this group. It was the Endurance series. Again as a "guest". At the end of the race I came to the same conclusion as I did after the BTCC race. A good bunch of people who are here to enjoy their racing. Thus (for myself) i decided upping my status from "guest" to regular participant.

    Now on when to do the races. Hosting only on the weekends is wrong. Some people have jobs on the weekend and can only race on weeknights. Some people like to have a friendly race after a hard day at work. So a mix of week and weekend races would be best.
    As for the times these races are run, that will always be a compromise. As we all know the members of SRO are based all over the world. Due to the world being a sphere that circles around the sun we all live in a different timezone. Race starts are chosen so that everyone has a chance to take part. Lets not forget that 20.00 UK time is 23.00 in Eastern Europe and 12.00 to 15.00 in the US.

    Now for the what and where to race bit. If an admin or even a regular member takes the time to organise a series I for one don't mind if he/she chooses a mod and track he/she likes. Its he/she who puts in the time. If at the end of the series the participants have dwindled down to 2 or 3 taking part i'm sure there won't be a follow up series.

    Let use myself as an example again. I'm the instigator behind the AC Seat Leon series. I asked the admin(s) if they would be interested in doing this series. I provided the tracks and latest version of the mod. I choose this mod because i'm a huge fan of it and because no matter what your driving level is you can get this car around a track in a decent time without getting frustrated. Now for series 2 I deliberately choose tracks I had never raced on or hadn't raced on in a long time. First race we had 17 people taking part. That is not too bad I would say. However those numbers went down for the 2nd and 3rd races. I have fair idea why, but I will keep this to myself. On the other hand, the ones that are still doing the series are all having the time of their lives (exaggerated a bit) and keep coming back for more.

    I have said it before, I like my time here and for that I have to thank the admins for their efforts, and the people racing here.

    Disclaimer, this is just my view on things.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  8. Ricardo Gomes

    Ricardo Gomes Pro Driver

    Shortmined is a strong word ... specially when i was trying to make an oposition, like cold vs hot, in vs out, feeling of belonging vs feeling of being simply a guest. Let us not forget that you, for example, "upgraded" your status from "guest" to "regular participant" (perhaps only) because you found FWD races in AC.. the only ones you race in. Mpreover, I do remember when choosing a mod to race in AC, i voted for the EXOS and you for the F3 (the thing was, i recall, lets start with something easier)... well, the F3 won, i did not race with it (not one race).. and neither did you! not one race.. very odd stuff
    Guests become members (or regular participant) when they find what they like ... as you did (fwd ac series)
    More: as you said you were the "instigator behind the AC Seat Leon series.", hence the feeling of belonging (being part of the decision making).. how many drivers here can say the same? and you only have been racing the series you instigated... (can you imagine if all drivers, here, and now, were only driving series they instigated?)
    It was exactly my point!
    I wasn't casting aside drivers that for the sake of the argument i named guests.. on contrary, i was aiming for all people that want to (and love) race here, having a say on what the comunity here race, so they feel like they belong here (instead of being like guests they came here and there).
    As Burke said, i may not agree with you .. but i'll defend the right for everyone to speak their mind.
    You went on a differernt direction... and called me shortminded.
    What can I say?
    Thank you
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  9. Roy Cop

    Roy Cop Pro Driver

    Since it hurt your feelings despite me clearly saying "I do not want to hurt anyones feelings by stating this" I have edited my post.
    And maybe you should get your facts straight, I do not only race FWD series here ;-) And i'm in this group to enjoy myself, so why shouldn't I drive the mods I like? I liked the LMP2 cars, but those are no longer run here, so I run them elsewhere. Do I mind? No. Again, the choice of what is raced here is taken by the people who put their time, effort and money into this group and I applaud them for it. Do I critisice them for choosing a mod I don't like? HELL NO! Can you say the same?
    Why do you always take any comment that goes against yours so personally? Aren't people allowed to have another view than yours?
  10. Ricardo Gomes

    Ricardo Gomes Pro Driver

    "However I feel differently" is very different than saying that another person's opinion is shortminded.. people are allowed to express any view (as i stated before), as long as they respect others (as i also stated).. i said what i said, because i was under the impression that you did not respect mine, and not the other way arround.
    If money is the problem, let me just say this.
    When I first talked to Nigel about users paying 10euros anually, I agreed.. I even paid for a friend of mine to race here, because, as i said Nigel in those days, I believed that SRO was the place to race. But I agreed, as long as everyone had a say on what to race so that we could build a strong racing comunity.
    I would much prefer a small, strong, everyone helps on the expenses.. than having 2 or 3 admins choosing all combos, sim, date, schedule.

    If they pay for all and choose what to race.. sure, why shouldn't they?
    But there's a flip side to that coin: why should they be surprised if no one shows, just a few or only half show, or some here and some there?
    Think about it.

    They may say: all this was for the members of sro.. but in fact they chose the mod, the track, the time, the day.. everything
    Just like a rich kid that invites the poor neighbours to play with his toys.. giving the impression he's sharing is toys, but in fact he feels alone.. and he needs someone to play with.
    Believe or not, in the beginning I had a talk with Nigel (and with another member of the staff that left) about this very same subject.. and i was told that this woulnd't happen...

    This is my personal, subjective opinion.
  11. Ken Jagger

    Ken Jagger Administrator Staff Member Donator

    Some great comments, insights, thoughts and feelings from those above which is exactly the kind of dialogue and input we are looking for in our future planning. Thank you for that :)

    Rob has somewhat preempted what I was planning to do with some follow on Polls to complement this first one. If I tried to ask all the questions at the same time, the Poll could be 3 screens long! The other option was to do it as a Member survey, but that would take a lot more time and organisation than Polls, without having the right Tool-set to do it with at the moment, so I discounted that idea.

    So let's take it easy, after all Rome wasn't built in a Day, and work through some logical steps to collect some answers and opinions as planned. We might not get a concise, conclusive answer that we would like, but I'm sure we'll arrive at some helpful conclusions at the end of it.

    Oh and stay friends please :)
  12. Kahel Grahf

    Kahel Grahf Pro Driver

    One thing for sure... when we have good participation on the first event of new series... almost always next rounds gets deserted...

    Which can be frustrating since I'm the opposite, and thus I look for the opposite... I can't do lot of race, but when I do, I try to commit to the series and do as much as I can.
    It's the main reason why I race elsewhere, the second one being specific cars or sims I look for (not a problem since the series selection are pretty good right now.)

    I don't see this desertion phenomenon being this bad elsewhere... maybe we should more special event... stick with only a few series (shorter?) choose by the one that actually race here (right now) like ricardo suggest and do more single events.... we would call them special event that match real event (I would have appreciate such during Lemans) and orther just to give some content a try (for example trying a fun event with the new endurance pack of rf2 or whatever orther content/sims show up.)

    Not an easy task... so good luck with that :D... but seriously I also feel like 'less is more'... problem being figuring out the 'less'...
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  13. Ricardo Gomes

    Ricardo Gomes Pro Driver

  14. Kahel Grahf

    Kahel Grahf Pro Driver

    Took a look at RF2 series... And it look like -Historic F3- and -Asian Lemans- are keepers.
    Formula 2 should be canceled...consider this mod for fun or special event.
    And keep only one series at the time between GT3 and Flat6... both at the same time are way too much...I would go as far as get rid of them both... And keep the GT3 series for another sims like AC maybe PCARS2.

    About touring, get rid of the 207 for now, keep it as an option for fun events and consider the clio cup by simtek as an alternative.

    So to sum it up... Keep the one that works right now for the 2 main sims AC and rF2...
    people here seems to like historic content so keep one for each mains sims every season and alternate, lots of great historic content.
    Historic F3 for rF2 and Group C for AC... right now, seems solid choices.

    For the modern content keep the Endurance series for rF2, Asian Lemans is fine... and reserve the GT3 for AC... alternate by season but don't do both at the same time, it would work if we do short season 5/6 round max.

    Now we would have left something like:
    RF2: Historic F3 / Lemans series
    AC: Group C / Seat / GT3 (week A)
    PCARS: GT3 (week B)

    rF1 and Automobilista: community choice; alternate every week, only 1 series for each sim...

    (6 rounds every 14 days for every series, and we might have plenty room left for special event that match real racing event.)

    It's very messy post, and it might come up as directive, sorry about that at least it's not my intentions :D...
    I did that as a test of what One would do if He had to clean up, focus things up using basic stats we have access to...I guess it show One choices process... It is only meant as an example... I'm sure Ken and other admins might already do a better and have more exp. in the matter (I had to give credit to ken since he was in every race I recently did so...great job men)
    Most importantly we need to avoid too similar choices like flat6 and GT3 both for rF2, in the same season. It might split the users base for GT's... I know I won't do both, I might not be the only one. On the other hand if I had only flat6 for one season and GT3 for the next... now I would do them both.

    PS: I'm one of those who forgot to say 'yes'... I would race here...oups ;)
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  15. Roy Cop

    Roy Cop Pro Driver

    @Ken Jagger The survey might not have been a bad option. There are some good ideas mentioned over the 2 pages this thread is long. However I feel there are some out there who do not post in this thread for reasons only known to themselves. So maybe a sort of anonymus survey might not be such a bad idea.
    When you look at the forum maybe 10 to 15% of the people registered in this group really read it, and even less post here. That last bit is not an issue in this group alone. Its a common problem all over the internet.
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Philipp Pichler

    Philipp Pichler Pro Driver

    Actually the survey/poll covers the facts. rf1 and Automobilista are mostly a Ken/Ed event plus some guest appearance of Scott, John, Flaviu, Paul, Toni ... and myself. It is often on the border to three people which means that the race will run because we reached the minimum number of competitors. On the upper hand even these small grids we have fun, and from my prospect we do not take this really serious, therefore these events are "fun races". So why get rid of that or put a "fun event" label on it to separate it, that will likely not change anything. Or do I miss the fact that less series in the "series list" will increase the number of participants on the other events, would be odd for my opinion. And thats more or less the same for all series which have also smaller grids, regardless of the sim.

    Apart from that it seems that rf2 and Assetto Corsa are the way to go, probably it would be worthwhile to focus on some special series and give them the best time slots. And better communication respectively coordination as kahel mentioned.
    Also one thing is a bit "special" here, it is not really transparent why a specific series will be hosted. At the most of the time I have the feeling that Ken, who was a good taste in that respect, chooses a mod and tracks to run. (Just as in race2play) And everybody who likes that can join.
    Probably that r2p concept does not work here, because SRO does not have that much members and it is not transparent if there is a chance to influence track/mod/series choice. Or how somebody could even host his own series. (Or I missed that, but in r2p it was very easy to host his own series)
    Jari (Bruppacher) asked my that a while ago and I couldn´t answer him how he would be able to host and on what condition regarding money and so on. Maybe that should be made transparent and it seems worth a try to involve the members and provide channels/threads to make suggestions/discuss on track/mod/series choice, as more participation possibilities increases the acceptance and the grid size. But it seems that this is planned.

    In the end for me personally it is difficult to look beyond the end of august, as I do not know where I end up, maybe under a bridge or other places with an internet connection too worse to race online. But I hope for the best and that this place still exists when I m able to return. Because I got a lot of pressure to join the dark side (iracing) but I´m not fully convinced to leave you alone because of it ;)
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Roy Cop

    Roy Cop Pro Driver

    Another question/remark. Have you checked the attendance of races in other groups? There the issue is virtually the same. There are exceptions, but those are very few.
  18. Ken Jagger

    Ken Jagger Administrator Staff Member Donator

    If you're referring to other online racing sites, then yes many of them are showing reduced attendances and indeed we've just seen XRPM close it's doors. If we knew the magic answer to the lower number of attendees, we would have used it already :( It's a tough nut to crack for sure, but we can only try a few things and see what happens.
  19. Roy Cop

    Roy Cop Pro Driver

    After the 3rd race of the Seat series 2 I sent a mail to all that registered for the series. Of the 11 that were registered and didn't run the 3rd race only 2 took the bother to answer. Nigel and John. Both are admins. The other 9 just didn't bother. I guess that shows the commitment of some signing up for a series.
    Its almost gotten to a point where you can be sure that only half (if even that) will show up on racenight. Now to be fair, real life does sometimes take the upperhand, but half of the members?
    Rant over.
  20. Ken Jagger

    Ken Jagger Administrator Staff Member Donator

    It's very disappointing for sure Roy, especially when you feel so dedicated yourself to promoting, encouraging and attending these races/series. It's hard to fathom what/why it doesn't make others commit to it too :(

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